Why there Won't be Forced Vaccinations

On our forum, we have this discussion frequently about whether or not there will be forced vaccinations against the swine flu. It has been my contention that there won't be enough vaccine to go around and so vaccines won't be forced on the people. At least not in the beginning.
The governments are gearing up to protect vaccine and Tamiflu supplies, they are not gearing up to go door to door and vaccinate you at gun point.

follow this link.

Swine Flu Vaccine: Enough to Go Around?


from the article.

Government health officials said on Monday that the United States will have barely more than a third of the 120 million doses of swine flu they hoped would be available by mid-October,. That's far less than the 160 million doses they originally predicted in July.

This is far less than the amount needed. They are estimating now that there will be 45 million, enough for the primary target population which includes pregnant women, children under 4 and health care providers.

p.s. Lisa, saw your comment and will get a basic list up for you hopefully this afternoon.
I'm assuming you are prepping for 2 people right?
anyway, that's what we'll shoot for.

Interview with Dr. Henry Niman, Ph.D. on the Swine Flu

here is a great radio interview with Dr. Henry Niman about the swine flu.
excellent information.

KBoo Radio FM

click the link above and then click on the media bar to play.

Practical Care for person suffering from Swine Flu

This was posted in our forum by and emergency health care person and I think it is good practical information. I'm posting it here and you can copy and print it out. I'll be adding to it later.
Mush much thanks to Fishsurfer!

Btw, id just throw this out real quick. Since Respiratory failure is the most common cause of death, if you find yourself isolated and caring for someone because all hell has broken loose, you need to make sure and remember a few things.

-Dont let the person your caring for lie in bed, it will only help fluids build up on the lungs.
-Do make them cough and/or use spirometer devices (the little thing with the ball you try and hold in the air inside a clear tube at the hospital), get the fluids out of the lungs..its feeding the bacteria.
-Make them get up and walk around, even if they hate you for it.
-Make them sit up in bed to sleep or rest as much as possible (everyone used to do that in the old days every night)
-Provide supportive care for their fevers, dont let it get out of control but dont let it go away imho (the higher temps can help fight the lung infection somewhat), its probably better to have a rough few days followed by shedding than weeks of continuous pounding that may seem minor but bites you in the ass.
-Provide "chest pt" by pounding on the back and front of chest for at least a few minutes a couple of times a day, followed by purposeful coughing. The pounding loosens up the crap, you cough it out. Hard enough to make them bounce a bit, but dont leave massive bruises or break ribs for christs sake.
-Fluids, give them enough to make their urine at least yellow if not clear.

I would also add to this, if the weather permits and it's still warm enouugh, put a window fan in the sick room window blowing out. This will pull virus outside away from other rooms in the house and help cut down on chances of others catching the flu.

Also, go ahead and wash in hot water with bleach, some bed sheets. Line dry them in the sun and fold and wrap them in plastic. A new fresh trashbag works good for this. Store these bed linens to use during illness.

More from Fishsurfer.

Famous quote describing Pneumonia by Hippocrates:

"Peripneumonia, and pleuritic affections, are to be thus observed: If the fever be acute, and if there be pains on either side, or in both, and if expiration be if cough be present, and the sputa expectorated be of a blond or livid color, or likewise thin, frothy, and florid, or having any other character different from the common... When pneumonia is at its height, the case is beyond remedy if he is not purged, and it is bad if he has dyspnoea, and urine that is thin and acrid, and if sweats come out about the neck and head, for such sweats are bad, as proceeding from the suffocation, rales, and the violence of the disease which is obtaining the upper hand"

Actually a pretty damn accurate account, very astute observations. And thats exactly what your going to need to make in a world without access to medical care or drugs, good observations. Prevention...of illness in itself or worsening of the condition...is the name of the game. The body can do an awful lot of things to fight illness, and it will keep at it for as long as your fed, hydrated, and motivated enough to keep on living.

Pneumonia in a non-medical environment is a very exhaustive and lengthy fight. It could easily go on for months. Some weeks may be difficult, others may be easier. Regardless, if H1N1 hits hard this fall or even this summer (unlikely), be prepared for a battle. Hospitals will be overrun, the economy will be in the process of collapse, social unrest is likely, you will rely on family or they may rely on you. There will be no ambulance coming to get you, the EMT's and Medics will be at home themselves.

In Pneumonia, the normal exchange of gases in the alveoli (air sacs) are interupted by the presence of fluid, mucous, etc... There are many types of it, and underlying conditions greatly affect the outcomes.

Three types: Bacterial, Viral, and Atypical Bacteria (walking pneumonia).

There are many other underlying types as well, although a bit more uncommon, fungi etc...

Risk Factors:

Age: 65 or older
Flu or other respiratory illness
Chronic illness, such as heart or lung disease
Stroke (aspiration pneumonia due to difficult swallowing)
Weakened immune system caused by AIDS or chemotherapy treatment
Chronic bronchitis
Malnutrition
Pregnancy
Infants and very young children
Alcohol or drug abuse
Smoking
Chronic exposure to certain chemicals (eg, work in construction or agriculture)


Fever
Shakes and Chills
Green Yellow Mucous or Rust colored
Profuse sweating (diaphoresis)
Bluish nail color, lips, due to lack of oxygen...(hypoxia)
Altered mental status (related to massive infection including sepsis, oxygen levels, organ failure, or all of the above.

You see how it starts out? Fever, then shakes and chills, etc... Dont let it get passed shakes and chills and your fine. If you start letting fluids and secretions accumulate in the lungs, you could be in real trouble.

The biggest problem with this condition is accumulating fluid and mucous in the lungs, which can even get into pleural spaces surrounding the lungs, called effusions; then a spiraling inffective respiratory exchange and potentially sepsis sum total.

One of my favorite methods besides deep breathing to get fluid and mucous out of the lungs is to do some Chest Physical Therapy. It has some contraindications however, if the person is so ill they are at the point of bronchospams, sudden constriction of the muscles in the walls of the airways bronchioles (the two little branches leading to your lungs); then its a bad idea to start doing this (you should have been doing it well before this stage) doing so now may cause spasms and increase their severity. Let them rest and fight it off a bit more, continue doing deep breathing though, you can always do that.

The important thing to note though is that if you do this as mentioned in the begining of the thread, make sure you cough afterwards. There is a right way to cough, sit up on a chair. Take a deep breathe for about two seconds and exhale for about two seconds. Then make two sharp coughs, rinse and repeat.


How do you know its happening, beyond the fever, H1N1 condition, etc...?

If you have a stethoscope, you can listen for diminished lung sounds in the lower bases of the lungs. Listen every few hours, and over time you'll notice the trend quickly. Of course, if you own a stethoscope, you probably already know this. So what if you dont? Well, you should get a cheap one even, for under 20 bucks you can easily get a model suitable for basic listening needs of the lungs (and heart somewhat). But if you still dont buy one, then you can use percussion techniques, although its highly not as reliable as actually listening with a scope.

To do that, you basically take two fingers placed together, and tap on the spaces around the lungs, basically at the base of the rib cage (although your lungs go all the way up to your clavicle region and then some. Tap on it, listen for the tones it makes. If your a musician, you may be able to recognize what a hollow sound is, and what a more solid (fluid filled) sound is. Tap on a wall, where there is no stud its a hollow sound, where there is a stud, is somewhat muted and diminished. Same with the lungs. Remember what the person your helping sounds like, write it down, track it for a few hours to days and even weeks or months. It could be your first indication something is happening, beyond the obvious fever and malaise that occurs with the Flu.

The kind of lung sounds you'll find in Pneumonia are loud low pitched bubbly gurgles, or high pitched low intensity sound that last beyond exhalation. You may also just hear diminished sounds in the begining. You can listen to them here:

http://mtsu32.mtsu.edu:11259/abnormal_breath_sounds.htm

Think of your lungs like a sponge. It has air exchange sacs all over it, trading away CO2 for Oxygen, grabbing Oxygen from air while discarding Nitrogen, CO2, etc... sending it to your Heart to be distributed through your bodies circulatory system before it comes back to the lungs. F'ng awesome interaction imho.

But, when liquids,mucous, and fluids settle on the base of the lungs, sides of the lungs, etc... it can create a cascade of interactions that eventually cause your condition to worsen, your fluids to increase, and your temperature to rise among many other things.

So, its important to move around, shift those fluids around a bit, shake the mucous around, let the unaffected portions of your lungs absorb some of the crap that has saturated the other part of your lungs because you were lying in bed for days. If you move around, sit up in bed often, and generally avoid a flat position thats unchanged, you can do a great deal to relieve your lungs and give yourself a fighting chance.

Equally important, if someone is so out of it, nearly delusional or non-compliant with your demands; at least rotate them in their bed. Much like they do at a nursing home for bed sores and other things, they also do it for patients with lung issues in an ICU or Pallative care facility. You can also do it when death is not imminent, and i would highly suggest it even when your healthy trying to recover without meds. Its always good to change positions, move around, change rooms your in (mental aid), or even take them outside for fresh air. Switch it up, keep them moving if possible. But recognize when someone just needs to rest. You dont want to over exert someone

The other thing to mention here is that with this strain of flu, the onset of symptoms and the time you have to use "Treatments" may be extremely extremely short.

You need a mercury thermometer. Old school bulb style. With a Flu strain, your fever will show up slowly over a day or two, if you take your temp twice a day at the very least during a Pandemic, you may catch the onset of illness before you actually would have noticed it. Get a thermometer!

Seriously though, treating Pneumonia is a bitch, you've got bacteria stuck inside your lungs, edema potentially occurring as a side effect, and no anti-biotics to treat the underlying causes of inflammation and fluid build up, the bacterial infection itself.

If you've got Pneumonia to the point your lungs are full of fluid, your in a world of hurt.

If you know of some good immune boosting treatments that are readily available outside of the hospital, then do it. If you have left over anti-biotics, give it a shot. Even if its meant for a dog, or an aquarium, whatever. Worst case scenario, humility and quality doesnt matter anymore. Something is probably going to be better than nothing. If its from the Amoxil family of drugs definately do take it.

I hope that this information is helpful. I'd like to thank Fishsurfer for the time he put into putting this information together for people to use.

Swine Flu, what to stock and what to do

Ok, so you have swine flu in your area, here are a few things to think about.
One, you may decide to self quarantine or for some reason you could be placed under quarantine.
You will want to have food, water, medicines, (expecially prescription drugs) stocked up and on hand.
You'll want to have feminine hygine items and other toiletries.
Most often when it comes to those things, you will probably have enough on hand to last a while anyway. So, if you are strapped for cash and need to make your money count, take stock of what is already on hand before going to the store.
You'll want some bottled water.
Here's a tip about that. Save your soft drink bottles, rinse them out and fill them with water.
Soft drink bottles are excellent for water storage. You will need to figure a gal. a day per person in you home or group.

The reason water should be included in swine flu prepping is in the event that the grid goes down from absenteeism, you won't be caught without water.

As for stocking up food for this type of prepping you'll want to buy and stock things that you like to eat!
If you don't like beans, don't buy 50 lbs. of pinto beans!
For flu prepping, you'll want easy to prepare foods that require little or no cooking. This is in case you get sick and are too ill to cook.
Soups are a great item to stock for flu.
Buy also some Gatorade or other electrolyte type drinks or drink mixes. You'll need to stay hydrated if you become ill.
Put some Popsicles in the freezer. They can help you stay hydrated if you are sick.
Try and avoid dairy products while running a fever.

As for how many months to prep for, there are all kinds of estimates from 3-18 months.
I'd go with 3 months at this time and if you can get together 3 months of supplies you can add to it later if things go well.

Here's a sample list for you to use and add to or change depending on your needs.

for 2 people, if you are eating 3 meals a day that is 6 meals a day for 90 days, that comes to 540 meals.
add to that snacks and drinks and you get an idea of how much food you will want to have on hand.
Most importantly is to not get overwhelmed with the amount of food, just start right away and but some extra food and begin building your pantry.

You'll want to pay special attention to canned foods that can stay good without refrigeration.

canned soups or stews
crackers
oatmeal
Bottled water
Gatorade mix
Instant tea or coffee
sweetener
favorite comfort foods
(think about easy to eat food you'd give to someone if they were sick)
scrambled eggs are good too so you might want to make sure you have some eggs in the fridge
they will keep for quite a while under refrigeration.

If you are quarantined without illness in your home you food choices can be expanded but make sure you have sick-time foods.
Easy to eat, easy to get to, easy to prepare.

These are just a few main things to shoot for immediately.
Use your head, don't waste your money on things you hate to eat but also buy with an eye to ease of storage and shelf life. You want to get the most bang for your buck too.

There are some other things you'll want to get to make life easier if you are stuck in you house for awhile.

you'll need cash or funds for bills.
light bulbs
batteries for radio and flashlight
Lysol
Listerine
bleach
vinyl or latex gloves
N95 dust masks
paper towels
toilet tissue
soap
feminine items
toothpaste
vitamins
Tylenol
(don't take or give aspirin to a person running a fever, especially children, it can cause Rhys syndrome)


I'm going to add more to this this afternoon when I get all my ducks in a row.
I'll have something about caring for someone if they should get the flu and you are looking after them.

hope this helps get you started.

love,
mom a.k.a. Nanna

Hello Lisa!

Good morning Lisa, thanks for the comment!
about the soup mixes, here are some to start you off, they are from a post from last year.

Soup in a Jar

There are a lot of bean based mixes, which I like.
In any of these recipes can you substitute you own dehydrated vegetables for veggies called for in the recipe.
What I do sometimes is mix the beans together, then put my vegetables in another separate baggie. I wash the beans, put on stove with just water and bring to a boil, turn off the heat and cover and let sit for about an hour. You can pour off the water and add fresh water if you want to cut down on the gas from eating beans, it really seems to help.
then add your dried vegetables and cook according to the recipe.
Now last year, I made some soup mix that was mostly dried vegetables.
I'd put tomatoes, celery, onion, garlic, corn, okra, green beans and sometimes some dried tomatillos or other odds and ends. These could go in a big baggie or jar, then I mixed together powdered bullion, either chicken or beef, whichever you prever. I add crumbled dried herbs to it. I like basil but you can add other tasty herbs like parsley or oregano, rosemary, thyme. You get the idea.
I put these in their own little baggie as they would be added after the soup ingredients are tender.
You can also add a little bag of pasta too and add it when the boullion powder goes in.
It's really flexible. You can add left over chicken or beef to the soup too.
I have a jar of mixed dried beans that I add to the mixed vegetable sometimes. small beans like little peas or lentils. You don't have to precook and soak them like bigger beans.
I reallllllly like dehydrating.
You get more than twice or three times the food in the same space.
It' lightweight and easy to take on trips or to grab and run in an emergency.
here is a great website run by a very nice lady named Tammy.

dehydrate2store

she really knows about dehydrating and I highly recommend her videos.
She also is so sweet about answering emails.
thanks again Lisa for commenting. Hope that this was helpful and please don't hesitate to ask questions. I'm happy to help!
good luck.

pamela

Stock up on Seeds NOW

Good morning girls, I'm just in from the garden. Planted a second crop of green beans.
I was thinking about seeds this morning and wanted to impress on you girls the potential importance of going ahead now and getting your seed supplies laid up.
I'm going to the feed store after while and will go ahead and buy peas, beans and corn, and probably some spinach and other greens as well.
Here's my reasoning behind it.

If this fall, the flu comes through in a big bad way, I worry that the added load will collapse the economy.
I'm sure it is possible that it will all blow over and be ok but, just in case, it really wouldn't hurt anything to go ahead now while things are available and get yourselves some seeds.
If you have the money, I'd get whatever soil amendments you usually use too.
If the dollar collapses and we have hyperinflation, it is very possible that you wouldn't be able to afford seed next season even if you could find it somewhere.
so, go get some seeds!
store them in their paper envelopes in big jars or boxes or one of those plastic totes with snap on lids.
keep them cool and dry and in the dark, above all else, dry.
Don't store them on top of the fridge or close to a water heater or any electrical activity as far as that's concerned.
If you have a problem with insects or rodents, take those things into consideration when packing your seeds away.
If you use mason jars, try and pick a good dry day to pack them so as not to seal away moisture inside the jar with your seeds.
Just had this on my mind today and wanted to talk to you about it.
love,
mom

Pay Attention to this Flu

Good morning girls. Sorry I haven't posted in a while but I've been busy as you know with the garden and putting up vegetables for this winter.
The garden has done very well and we've had an abundance of food!

I wanted to talk to you about the swine flu.
I don't know how much you have been reading about it or what you have seen or are seeing on the news where you live. Most likely you have heard that it is mostly a mild flu and been advised to not panic.
Well, that's somewhat right and somewhat wrong. It has been mild for the people it's been mild for and lethal to the ones that have died from it.
Don't be fooled into thinking that this is an illness that kills fat or unhealthy people only. It isn't. It is showing every indication of being much like the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918. It is attacking people in your age group statistically more than people who are usually effected by the flu. i.e. babies and old people.
I have read and read and researched for weeks now, following this thing since it started and still, don't know how best to advise you.
Here's what I fear may be the real threat from this flu.
Economic collapse.
If this flu had come along back in the late 90's or even early 2000-01, I believe that our economy could have weathered the storm. However, this economy is hanging on by the finest of threads and severely increased absenteeism or quarantines and closures of businesses and schools could very well push us over the edge.
I want you girls to consider the food you have on hand in your homes.
Make certain you have 8-12 weeks supply of food and essentials. Include things like bleach and lysol, some Listerine and basic meds, vinyl or latex gloves and some dust masks like you can get at Lowe's or any hardware store. they'll say N95 on the package. Those are the recommended masks and aren't terribly expensive.
Have some extra things like light bulbs and toilet paper, batteries for flashlights, soap, paper towels and laundry detergent.
You want to think along the lines of, "If I want to stay here and not have to go out for a couple months, what would I need to have on hand."
You don't have to go crazy, (unless you just want to) but I think it sure wouldn't hurt to have what you'd need to just hang out in your house for a while if things get bad.
I'm trying to not ramble but I've so much I wanted to talk to you about!!!

At some point in the not too distant future, they are going to present us with a vaccine.
I doubt at this time that it will be mandatory as there will not be enough to go around.
60 to 100 million doses is what I'm seeing in the reports.
Front line health care workers, cops, firemen, critical infrastructure people will all be at the top of the list. Children and pregnant women also.

At this time it appears that they will have to triage the vaccine.
I want you girls to do some research while we have the luxury of time, into this vaccine and decide for yourselves if it were offered, would you take it.
Right now, personally I may not take it. I don't have much contact with the public as you know and wouldn't be at as great a risk. And if the flu gets really bad, and the vaccine provides some measure of protection, younger people should get it first. they are more likely to get the flu and be most harmed by it.
There are a many doctors comparing this flu to the 1918 pandemic. I found this documentary on the Spanish flu and you might like to watch it and get some background information of just how bad things can get.















watch the videos, and then read the piece below.
It was published in August of 2008. Before this flu had started.
It's about the 2005 exhumation of victims of the 1918 pandemic and how the anti bodies were isolated from them.

I sure hope these guys wear gloves!

In 2005, researchers from Mount Sinai and the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington, D.C., resurrected the 1918 virus from the bodies of people killed in the outbreak. The bodies, and the virus, had been preserved in the permanently frozen soil of Alaska.

When the investigators approached Crowe, whose lab had developed methods of making antibodies, to try to make antibodies to the 1918 flu, he was skeptical, but agreed to try.

The researchers collected blood samples from 32 survivors age 91-101 years and found that all reacted to the 1918 virus, suggesting that they still possessed antibodies to the virus.

Crowe’s team was then able to isolate exceedingly rare B cells – the immune cells that produce antibodies – from eight of those samples and grow them in culture. Seven of those samples produced antibodies to a 1918 virus protein, suggesting that their immune systems were waiting on standby for a long-awaited second outbreak.

“The B cells have been waiting for at least 60 years – if not 90 years – for that flu to come around again,” Crowe said. “That’s amazing…because it’s the longest memory anyone’s ever demonstrated.”

Don't make the mistake of thinking this flu is "No big thing."
It doesn't have to be as bad and 1918 to finish wrecking what is left of this economy, and believe me, that's all they are really worried about.